Political Human Sacrifice might not have been successful in terms of its end goals, but there is plenty of evidence that Congressman David Dreier may not get a free ride in the future.
Dreier was consistently too scared to face his critics on the John & Ken show. But shortly before election day, he agreed to come on the Doug McIntyre Show on KABC.
McIntyre (to his great credit) had zeroed in on Dreier poor voting record long before anyone else in the media did. Although he does not have the kind of show that could have marshaled a specific effort like Political Human Sacrifice, he laid the first intellectual foundations that made people choose Dreier to "win" the Sacrifice contest. For being the first to expose Dreier's true record, we owe McIntyre a big debt of gratitude.
What follows is a transcript of Dreier's appearance on McIntyre's show. The transcript was made by others from a tape of McIntyre's show. So while I cannot verify the complete accuracy down to every single syllable and small bit of syntax - I have full confidence that it is accurate in every substantive respect. I have also provided links within the transcript to help the reader more fully understand the larger context of the discussion.
David Dreier on Doug McIntyre (KABC) 11/1/04
McIntyre: First of all David I appreciate…Congressman Dreier, I appreciate you coming on. As you know, Congressman Dreier, I’ve been a very harsh critic of yours for a very long period of time. And you found yourself in a very hotly contested, and sort of famous election, becauseas Chairman of the House Rules Committee and a twelve term incumbent, the chances of defeating you…people said, well, uh, it’s like putting a man on the moon. But we did put a man on the moon, and people can lose elections. Why do you think David that after a long run in the House of Representatives you find yourself in the acrimonious fight?
Dreier: Well it comes down to basically this…and you’ve said it several times. There are people that are concerned about the fact that President Bush acknowledged there are between eight and fifteen million people in this country illegally…and (by) stepping up to the plate, and acknowledging that, by among other things, proposing support for a bracero program which would allow people to work in the United States and return to Mexico, created a high level of anger. And there are a number of people who decided as leader of the state delegation, as you said, chairman of the rules committee, the way to let George Bush know that they don’t like the idea of a bracero program is to not vote for David Dreier - when in fact on the issue of illegal immigration, I’ve been working since 1993 when I was working in the past North American Free trade Agreement to try and strengthen the economy of Mexico so people would have the incentive to not flee across the border, all the way to 1996 when we were trying to put in place a counterfeit proof social security card, to our work right now to reintroduce that working with TJ Bonner. I guess my argument it that it’s a specious case, and I look forward to have a lengthy discussion with you ...
McIntyre: Let’s have the discussion David. Obviously immigration is a very, very important issue in the Southwest and here. And the question is simply this: when Bush on January 7th, 2004 announced his guest worker program, his “non-amnesty”, what we consider to be amnesty program - a convoluted Byzantine designed to fail…uh, program, that’s unenforceable…you came on the air at a number of radio stations and supported it. And then there was a blowback on it. What’s in it for us? What does America get out of things like flooding this country with cheap labor that drives down the price of wages for working people? It seems like…Its like a bonus for multi national corporations. We got out-sourcing on one hand, with in-sourcing on the other side that devalues the value of labor in this country and weakens our sovereignty at a time when we are looking out for terrorists.
Dreier: Doug you like to quote the Framers, right? I heard you do that with regularity. Thomas Jefferson said two thinking men can be given the same exact set of facts and draw different conclusions. And so I respect your view on that. I hope you, having heard your opening monologue just a few minutes ago before my friend Bill Jones came on to talk about this issue of civility, will realize that I also have a very passionate commitment to securing our borders. Let me tell you what I believe. I believe that if we can reduce by 98-percent the flow of illegal immigrants in the U.S by having a counterfeit proof social security card that would be utilized by people applying for a new job…
McIntyre: But Congressman Dreier...
Dreier: Let me…let me…you know ....
McIntyre: (unintelligible)
Dreier: You’ve been giving a long statement. Do you want me to answer your question? Or I’m sure you’ll say this is...I’m happy to answer your question if you’d like?
McIntyre: Ok. I like that the langu…I like that...There is so much to cover here, and…
Dreier: That’s what I’m saying. I’m looking forward to a lengthy conversation. I never said I’d do it before the election. I said that I look forward to a conversation....
McIntyre: A lengthy conversation after the election doesn’t enlighten the voters…
Dreier: Let’s talk...
McIntyre: How does a biometrical social security card…
Dreier: I never said anything about a biometric…
McIntyre: Ok. A secure social security card still doesn’t stop people from coming across the border who come here for a better way of life.
Dreier: Doug, you just said it. Why do people come here? They come here seeking economic opportunity. TJ Bonner who is the president of the National Border Patrol Council, a 26-year veteran of the border patrol, made this recommendation at the end of the Time Magazine article. And when I read the Time Magazine article…when I read the article, my blood was boiling. And I’ve always been working on this issue of illegal immigration. But when you compare the Tyson food case and the brutal rape of two nuns by someone who came here illegally…uh, it is clear that we need to take action. And Bonner’s proposal...
McIntyre: But congressman Dreier, we didn’t need the Time Magazine article to tell us ...
Dreier: Did you hear what I said after I said “Time Magazine” Doug? I said, as I’ve been working on this for a long period of time. Eight years ago, I was trying to put into place a counterfeit proof social security card. I was one of the minority members of my party…
McIntyre: But congressman Dreier, you endorsed the President’s guest worker program…
Dreier: I support the concept of a bracero program…
McIntyre: Ok. And as soon as that speech was made, the INS agency’s own statistics said that since the President made that proposal…has made that proposal…there has been an enormous spike in people crossing the border into Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico… And that was when the program was (introduced). It’s an invitation to cross the border…
Dreier: Let me tell you what I believe. And I know I keep harkening (to it) because the guy whom I work with is TJ Bonner. And what he said is if we put into place (a) counterfeit proof social security card, which will reduce by 98-percent the illegal border crossings…because like McIntyre just said, that people come here for a better way of life. What is that? A job. Economic opportunity. People will not be able to get a job if we have a card that one can swipe. An employer can swipe to determine exactly the status is of…
McIntyre: But Congressman Dreier…
Dreier: What Doug…what…what, excuse me. What Bonner said, if you’re going to have this social security card, it must be accompanied by some type of guest worker program. Not one that gives amnesty…
McIntyre: But Congressman, this is still Economics 101. You can have all the security if you want, (but) if there’s no enforcement, it doesn’t mean anything.
Dreier: That’s the whole point - there is enforcement. I don’t believe it is very wise to turn our employers into police but by virtue of having these tampered proof cards with the legislation that I have…that has a four hundred percent increase in penalties…And I agree about enforcement. We need to do more to enforce....It is our job as members of Congress to make laws. And we have oversight…We need to do what we can to do (enforcement)…I totally agree with you on that…
McIntyre: But you have been there for 24 years…
Dreier: I’m not a law enforcement officer!
McIntyre: But you’re chairman of the House Rules Committee. You’re not a back bencher. You’re a front bencher. By everyone...
Dreier: You know what I’ve done?...
McIntyre: You got the worst voting records of any US Congressman on the border issues. The very worst. FAIR, and all the immigration agencies that study this, have ranked you as the worst Republican in the House of Representatives.
Dreier: That’s not true…
McIntyre: Well, I can go on the website right now and get fifty of them…
Dreier: I don’t know what you’re talking about…
McIntyre: Let’s go with FAIR
Dreier: FAIR just endorsed my legislation…
McIntyre: Fair gave you an “F”.
Dreier: They’ve endorsed my legislation… Doug, I really don’t know what it is (that) you’re talking about….
McIntyre: I think the audience does. I think the audience sees it everyday. We see…we see... We had the mayor of Los Angeles about three weeks ago give a press conference where he talked about a 53 percent illiteracy rate of adults 16-plus in L.A. A staggering statistic…
Dreier: Terrible…
McIntyre: Ok. But when people talk about putting the National Guard on the border, you said, and I quote, that “That is the equivalent of declaring war on South America.”
Dreier: Absolutely, and...
McIntyre: Why can’t a sovereign nation defend sovereign borders? Why are we talking about securing the borders of Afghanistan and Iraq if we can’t secure our borders at home? It’s like putting an 87-billion dollar burglar alarm to secure our country from terrorists, but not putting the door on the hinges.
Dreier: Doug, two studies were done…One in 1986 that was commissioned by the Pentagon that was commissioned by Senator Sam Nunn, and 4 years ago the Congressional Research Service researched this. They said if we were to militarize our border the cost would be 375-billion dollars. Right now our entire defense budget for everything we’re doing globally is 412-billion dollars, and the cost would be prohibitive. And by most predictions we would return to the draft. What we’ve done is...
McIntyre: We handed out 90-billion dollars in subsidies for farmers. We handed out 530-billion or whatever it is for a prescription drug plan. And you know something? We’re closing hospitals all over Southern California. No one touched the issue. And I also…(what I want) to ask you…I went to Dave’s March for Justice rally at the College of the Canyons in Santa Clarita on May 8th to get back Armando Garcia who killed officer David March in your district, and you weren’t there. And no one from your office was there. And Barbara Boxer had a representative, but you didn’t have a representative…(to see) Armando Garcia (come) back to stand trial for the murder of a police officer…
Dreier: Just yesterday Doug…
McIntyre: The day before the election, good timing…
Dreier: Hello…
McIntyre: Yeah I’m here…
Dreier: Yesterday, I had probably my 15th discussion with the Deputy Foreign Minister of Mexico, and we are doing everything we can to get the killer of Deputy David March back. I’d encourage you to talk to March’s widow...
McIntyre: I had John and Barbara March on three times. I had Anabella Vara, who was shot in the head by an illegal immigrant who fled back to Mexico, who we can’t touch. I’ve talked to all these people….I’ve talked to all of them….And we’ve heard about all the talking you do, but you’re a front bencher. You’re not a backbencher. You sit on every committee that deals with U.S. Congress and Mexico…. And the only thing you come back with is trade agreements that only benefit multi-national corporations at the expense of our safety, our jobs, our culture, and our national security….
Dreier: Well that’s just a complete mischaracterization with what it is that I’ve done….
McIntyre: Well how come you’re not pressing charges against me. I feel slighted that you’re prosecuting John and Ken, but you’re leaving me out.
Dreier: I’m not pressing charges…
McIntyre: Of course you are David. You’re fooling no one on that.
Dreier: I’m not pressing charges against anyone.
McIntyre: All of the sudden talk radio can’t take a stand on a candidate they don’t agree with…
Dreier: Excuse me....You’re doing all the talking here. I don’t know what it is that you’re talking about. I’m not pressing charges against anyone…
McIntyre: Well what was that…What? The charges… That the charges…The FEC…were created in a vacuum? They (came) from nowhere?
Dreier: The National Republican Congressional Committee...
McIntyre: Just out of thin air, they decided….
Dreier: Excuse me…the National Republican Congressional Committee said there were corporate contributions that were a violation of federal law that were being made. I want everyone to have First Amendment rights and to say anything they want about me, and ....
McIntyre: Are they going to file charges against Sean Hannity? Against Rush Limbaugh?
Dreier: Have they had a corporation subsidizing?
McIntyre: You can make the case…You can make the case…
Dreier: Make the case that what?
McIntyre: There is nothing going on there that isn’t going on in talk radio across the country. The Republican party has been benefiting for twenty years, and now all of a sudden a Republican is taking heat, and now the FEC has to be involved…
Dreier: I really don’t understand what it is that you’re talking about...
McIntyre: I think the audience understands it David...
Dreier: Let me tell y...If you look at the campaign finance reform law…If you look at where we stand on, uh…at the fact that corporate contributions...
McIntyre: David, here’s the bottom line. We have looked. That’s why you’re in the fight for your political life. I’m sorry we can’t continue with this lengthy conversation, but we do have a clock…
Dreier: I’m trying to be as available as I can for you…
McIntyre: Oh, please. We’ve called you 14 times. l4 times...
Dreier: And here I am…
McIntyre: You called my office three times, but you wouldn’t come on the air until the 11th hour….
Dreier: Doug it’s great to talk to you…And this notion of civility…about…you talked about…(that) you talked about in the beginning of the hour is something very important. And I appreciate your respect for that civil discourse which we’re going to be continuing...
McIntyre: Ok, thanks for (calling) in…
Dreier: My pleasure.
So I ask you - Does this sound like a politician who you want representing you (or a political party built on pride and integrity)?
Some have argued that although they agree with the criticism against Dreier on immigration, it would be better to challenge him in the primary rather than sacrifice him to a Democrat in order to send a larger message to the Republican Party. Hopefully, such people will now be able to join the cause in 2006...anybody but Dreier.