Calblog

You're not alone in being conflicted...

It could (and maybe should) end up that all civil unions are just that (including those currently called 'marriage') and all 'marriage' is recognized by the church (or temple, or mosque, etc.)

Why not get myself in trouble...Gay Marriage is a symptom of the decay of family, as the family decays the society itself decays. Who knows where all this leads, but I feel it cannot be positive.

The only way I can see gay marriage being accepted generally is if a few very liberal states enact it legitimately, with other states gradually following suit. Politically, I don't see anything close to that right now. Massachusetts, one of the most liberal states in the union, is divided right down the middle on this issue. The rest of the country is not even close.

One thing I can guarantee, however, is that if courts jump in and try to "solve" this issue for us, it will remain divisive for generations to come. Courts do not have a good track record in this area.

I personally think that the "libertarian" argument for gay marriage is a weak and phony one.

If government really should not be regulating marriage, then states should stop issuing marriage licenses at all, and it should become strictly a social and contractual institution.

As for what results it would have, from what I understand, Scandanavian countries, which mostly have gay marriage, tend to average about 60% of kids born out of wedlock. Separating having kids from marriage ends up meaning that people don't get married when a guy "knocks up" a girl, which still happens pretty often here.

This leads to one of three things. Either you need a massive bureaucracy dedicated to figuring out paternity, child support, visiting rights and all the rest, or we do what the Scandanavians have done and implement massive childcare programs and more or less make kids wards of the state, or women are screwed because all of the responsibility for raising kids devolves onto them without any support network. My guess is that in America, it would end up being some combination of one and three, and two isn't really acceptable to a libertarian. One isn't great either, since child safety bureaucracies tend to not care very much about many civil liberties. And three is just inhuman, and would probably lead to higher crime rates because men would no longer have a place in society.

Apparently, courts no longer have a monopoly on lawless stunts intended to promote gay marriage.

Redefining what marriage essentially consist of is the wrong idea. Civil unions for all is the wrong idea. Instead of trying to redefine marriage I think all the pro gay marriage folks ought to get together and come up with some sort of civil union that they can agree on. If a man marries a man he might think he's married and the state or country in which he resides might even say he's married, but I got news for him, what he's got ain't marriage. The nature of heterosexual marrauge is profoundly different than homosexual relationships and any legal recognition of homosexual relationships should reflect that difference. To say that philosophical and theological arguments do not matter in this debate is ridiculous. Such philosophical and theological concerns have informed the laws of our union from the beginning. You can not extricate laws governing essential social institution from the philosophical and theological thought that inspired them.

I agree with Xrlq that the courts "solving" the issue will not keep it from being divisive, but I bet that it would have an impact on public opinion. I believe that before Roe, most people opposed legalized abortion; now, most people support it.

XRLQ - I think you're right about both the way that gay marriage will be accepted as legitimate and the result if the courts decide the issue. I also think that writing a ban into the constitution will have the same effect as the courts deciding the issue; both will cause it to be a divisive, combative issue for generations.

Justene - I think part of the problem you're having is the conflict between religious marriage and secular marriage; they aren't the same thing but they're not precisely different things either, and so there's a lack of clarity as to what exactly the different rules for the two are or should be.

I don't particularly care if there is such a thing as gay "marriage'. What is important to me is that there is an easy way to get the legal benefits of a protected relationship - not being forced to testify, automatic hospital visitation rights, right of survivorship, etc - without going through an expensive and cumbersome legal process. Domestic partnerships work fine for that, and i'm happy with the solution California has currently.

John - the fact that gay marriage is legal and a country and the fact that that country has an average of 60% of children born out of wedlock do not necessarily mean that one is the cause of the other, nor does it mean that allowing gay marriages here will result in more kids being born out of wedlock. Your entire argument appears to be a red herring.

Patrick - could you explain to me how, precisely, the nature of heterosexual marriage is profoundly different from the nature of a decades-long committed homosexual relationship? In my mind the basis for a marriage is a long-term commitment to put the interests of the couple above the interests of the individual, and to share your lives, and grow old together, supporting one another through good times and bad. Is there some fundamental difference in how a straight couple would do that and how a gay couple would do that, or is there some fundamental aspect of marriage i'm missing in that description?

Aphrael,

What I forgot to say was that apparently the out-of-wedlock birthrate went way up after they legalized gay marriage. Correlation may not be causation, but it can imply it, and that, taken with the fact that the heterosexual divorce rate increased, certainly weakens "conservative" arguments that gay marriage will strengthen heterosexual marriage, at the very least.

As the leader of a Church which allows gay marriages, I think Kerry has done a lot of damage to the liberal cause by his lewd behaviour. Middle America will now think liberals are sleazy and untrustworthy. They will say if he can't keep a vow to his wife, how can we trust him to uphold the constitution?

John -

Isn't the rise of out of wedlock child-rearing in Scandanavia more a function of the rise of the social welfare state there? I mean, frankly, a baby could be dropped by a stork in city-center Stockholm, and it would get immunized, fed, day-cared, educated and be provided with a government job before it hit the ground.

Gays are screaming "It is discrimination -- let's not write discrimination into the Constitution." How can gays be discriminated against over something - a law that never applied to them to begin with?

Marriage is for a man and a woman -- period and steeped in that “man and woman” traditional marriage is the hope and beauty of natural procreation; not artificial insemination between lesbian couples, and not surrogacy by women for gay men.

I live in Boston, and Beacon Hill has become the land of political confusion. What I have seen so far on this whole gay marriage fiasco is that it is felt to be a civil rights issue. Here we have 4 wayward judges that decided to take it upon themselves to write law for the legislature, for which they can and should be impeached. Gays are relying on Massachusetts lawmakers to pass this law because they do not, by their own admittances, want it to go to the people for voting. People are more against this than for it; not only in Massachusetts, but in the majority of the world, and the reason is not only tradition and law, but morality -- religion aside!

Tolerance of the gay lifestyle, however deviant and unnatural most feel it to be, has been thrust forcefully upon people by liberals and special interest groups. People are so fed up! People are sick and tired of everything they feel and think being practically under martial law in this country! People have bitten their tongues for far too long over everything they are not allowed to do, say, think, feel or celebrate for fear of seeming un-politically correct by not doing the popular thing/feeling the popular, politically correct way, thus being considered a racist, bigot, homophobe or mean spirited.

People have had enough already! If this law should happen to pass and gay marriage is allowed, it is quite possible that people who were once tolerant and accepting of this lifestyle, be it on their own accord, or because they had no choice, could turn on gays and display outright acts of hatred. Passing of this gay marriage law could be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back.

Marriage is a very, very venerated bond for heterosexuals. To have this union 'between man and woman', as it has been since the beginning of time, be granted to gays because they whined and bitched and got their way; thus having marriage lose the meaning people held most dear -- this could have dire consequences.

If gays think that circumstances are bad for them at this point in time; that they have been victimized and discriminated against, wait and see what the future might possibly hold. Gays may be biting off more than they can chew. People can become as un-politically correct as we are currently forced to be politically correct. However far gays think they’ve come in the world in terms of equal rights and acceptance could be offset by a fierce backlash – a revolt, an upheaval of hatred from the straight community - even those who are supposed to act politically correct under “crybaby” left wing laws – people such as landlords, employers, etc.

People may regress to the days when nasty things were said and feelings were shared outright -- and no amount of legislature or law suits (another thing people are fed up with) will stop people from expressing themselves --no more putting up and shutting up! Attitudes could rival the days of Archie Bunker!

Be careful what you wish for -- it may not be what you wanted, and it may not go the way you thought it would.

Andrew: I don't doubt that the welfare state is a factor as well. But social stigmas count, too. Anything that dilutes the concept of marriage can't exactly help matters.

araphael, gay relationships and heterosexual relationships are different because men and women are different. Between a man and a woman there is a physical and emotional complimentarity. This is an objective fact. This is the way things are. Men and women relate with each other differently than a gay couple does. The emotional dynamic is different, the sexual expression is different, the fulfiment a gay couple receives from their relationship is different than a heterosexual couple because the emotional and physical need that is fulfilled is different. Gay and straight relationships are different. You speak of growing old together and that sounds lovely, but that is merely an external expression of the relationship, but the relationship is different.

Marriage is not between _a_ man and _a_ woman; or at least, restricting it like that is ignoring many thousands of years of history. We've (for some values of we that includes a number of the institutions supporting 1 male/1 female marriage) redefined it away from polygamy for whatever reason; so why is marriage in its current form so perfect?

You are a lawyer? Oh, jeez, give me a break.

If you were a lawyer, you would know that marriage (in the civil sense) is whatever the civil authorities declared marriage to be.

The catholic church does not recognize a civil marriage between a previously married individual who has not paid them enough to get an annulment, and another individual. But so what? What civil rights, etc., are removed from them because the catholic church is unwilling to recognize the marriage?

Give me a break. So what if the priest is unwilling to engage in the virtual cannibalistic ritual of "communion" with those people?

Ma'am,
If you want an accurate, well-defined picture of the society we are becoming around the world (not just America), study the Writings of The Glory of God, Baha'u'llah, Whose hundreds of volumes depict a world society based on the oneness of humankind, the oneness of God and the oneness of the Faith of God through the ages; a world polity recognizing the equality of men and women; accepting the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus of Nazareth, acknowledging the mystery of the immaculacy of the Virgin birth and the primacy of Peter, Prince of the Apostles; accepting that justice is the keynote for this Day and Age; and abolishing all entrenched orthodoxies and priesthoods by giving 'power to the people' to investigate reality for ourselves.

This from a man who is on the record as NEVER having gone to school or been tutored in the ways of humans, because during His formative years when they were testing Him to see where to place Him in the system, He answered ALL their questions accurately, succinctly and courteously...

Yeah--the "unchanged institution" people make me crazy. Don't they read?--don't they realize that in human history, polygymy has been the rule, rather than the exception?

As for you, PC Gone Mad--for you to suggest that my marriage is any less a marriage because my husband and I cannot have children is simply fucked up. (And don't qualify it on the basis that we at one point "hoped" for biological children. We did so out of ignorance, and if I had it to do over again I'd insist we both get tested beforehand, so we'd know what we were getting into.) You are pathetic.

i struggle with this too. not just the fact that i might not get to marry someone of my chose when i am of age, but the fact that i am 14 years old and have been gay for the last year and a half. i think it is right. and i wish to live in a society where people can look at it as marrige and not "gay" marrige. iwish to live in a place where people are counted as one and not looked at as queer. it might be a lot to take in from a 14 year old girl, but as i see it, i'm just another person looking out for what i belive to be right. and if we cant live in a society where we can be loved by who we want and when we want to, then i woudl have no reason to live at all.

i struggle with this too. not just the fact that i might not get to marry someone of my chose when i am of age, but the fact that i am 14 years old and have been gay for the last year and a half. i think it is right. and i wish to live in a society where people can look at it as marrige and not "gay" marrige. iwish to live in a place where people are counted as one and not looked at as queer. it might be a lot to take in from a 14 year old girl, but as i see it, i'm just another person looking out for what i belive to be right. and if we cant live in a society where we can be loved by who we want and when we want to, then i woudl have no reason to live at all.

There is obviously a lot of strong feelings on this topic. I'm tired of hearing everyone argue about it, but it is a fight that cannot be ignored. The marriage institution (one man and one woman) is being threatened. For centuries heterosexual marriage has not only been accepted by every culture, but it has been a foundation of who we are as people. God ordained marriage to be binding and meaningful, but only for a man and a woman. The two balance each other out. They compliment each other, they fit together. God has also made it clear that homosexuality is wrong, just as adultery, etc. It's a sin. I don't hate gay or lesbian people. But I won't condone their lifestyle. If anyone's reading this, you might be skipping through my writing, because you see that I have strongly relied on God for the answers. America is so self-assured these days. We forget that God is real, and caring about what's happing in our lives. We also forget that there are absolutes. We don't like to think that certain things are right or wrong anymore. Whether or not you believe that there are absolutes doesn't make them go away. Yes, of course, I believe there are absolutes, including the marriage institution. Where would we be without precidents? Without Truth? So many today want to look at life with a "go with the flow...whatever works for you is fine..." attitude. It makes me sick. We're so politically correct and tolerant of everything and everybody. It is true that everybody should be respected, and America is a free country. But there are certain things that should not be sacrificed for the sake of what someone thinks is his/her right. Some will argue that gays should be allowed to marry in order to be entitled to their "persuit of happiness". But there are a lot of things that are illegal because they are harmful, which some might consider an aid to their personal happiness. For instance, one could argue that they should be allowed to buy now-illegal drugs legally (other than for the sake of medicine). After all, it might be what makes them happy, even temporarily. And yet it is harmful to their body, so it is still illegal. Gay marriage is harmful to our society. The family unit is crumbling. Families aren't what they used to be. Allowing gays to marry, and eventually have kids through other than natural means, can only hurt us as a nation. Kids need a mother and a father. Isn't it interesting, by the way, that gay/lesbian couples almost always have one partner portraying a more masculine role, and one a more feminine role? Why does this happen, if they claim that two sexes aren't needed in a marriage, or for the upbringing of a child? This isn't the only area that needs attention in America. I've gone on for longer than I planned, but i want to leave one final thought.

I'm nineteen and it scares me to think of what my children will be facing when they're my age.

What kind of America are we building? Morals and absolutes are being challenged as never before. It makes me sad, really.

What this nation really needs is to turn and pray, repent, and wait on God to heal our land.

Is the Homosexual Lifestyle acceptable to God?

Romans 1: 26, 27

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Bible Notes

God’s plan for natural relationships is his ideal for his creation, unfortunately sin distorts the natural use of God’s gifts. Sin often means not only denying God, but also denying the way we are made. When people say that any sex act is acceptable as long as nobody gets hurt, they are fooling themselves. In the long run (and often in the short run) sin hurts people – individuals, families, whole societies. How sad it is that people who warship the things God made instead of the Creator so often distort and destroy the very things they claim to value.

Homosexuality (To exchange or abandon natural relations of sex) was as widespread in Paul’s day as it is in ours. Many pagan practices encouraged it. God is willing to receive anyone who comes to him in faith and Christians should love and accept others no matter what their background. Yet homosexuality is strictly forbidden in scripture (Leviticus 8:22) Homosexuality is considered an acceptable practice by many in our world today – even by some churches. But society does not set the standard for God’s law. Many homosexuals believe that their desires are normal and that they have a right to express them, but God does not obligate nor encourage us to fulfill all our desires (even normal ones) Those desires that violate his laws must be controlled. If you have these desires you can and must resist acting upon them. Consciously avoid places or activities you know will kindle temptations of this kind. Don’t underestimate the power of satan to tempt you, nor the potential for serious harm if you yield to these temptations. Remember, God can and will forgive sexual sins just as he forgives other sins. Surrender yourself to the grace and mercy of God, asking him to show you the way out of sin and into the light of his freedom and his love. Prayer, bible study and strong supporting a Christian Church can help you gain strength to resist these powerful temptations. If you are already deeply involved in homosexual behavior, seek help from a trustworthy, professional , pastoral counselor.

If you honesty would like to change your life and know without a doubt that when you leave this world you will spend eternity with the Lord.

Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I am sorry for my sin. I repent of it and I turn to you by faith right now. I thank you for dying on the cross for me and paying the price for all of my sins. I ask you to come into my life right now and be my savior my lord and my friend. Fill me with your holy spirit. Amen

God Bless you
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